I’m with you 100% on this. I was not at all sympathetic to Gazans in the immediate aftermath of 7/10. I also support Israel’s right to exist.
That doesn’t mean however they get to act without impunity- the Millwall of the Global Community.
There are lots of hostile actors in the Middle East - what are they going to do - flatten anyone who looks at them funny?
Who gets the refugees from the chaos they unleash? Europe.
The fact is that there are good many supremacist Jews in Israel who are happy to tread on and bully non-Jews. Not just on the West Bank. They are reigned in by the government who know how to keep up appearances in the outside world. But frankly there are a lot of nasty currents and a fair bit of schadenfreud towards Christian Europe that borders on bigotry.
And there is usually a chorus of voices that then start accusing you of antisemitism for pointing this out.
(30 odd years ago my brother spent 9 months on a kibbutz and came home with a very negative opinion of Israelis - the non-Jews got markedly different treatment from the Jews, the common Israelis had open contempt for non-Jewish archaeology and ruins etc.
Later running a hostel in Peru he found that the many gap year Israelis who toured South America were rude, unpleasant and predatory towards local girls - in the same way perhaps that say subcontinentals divide the world into women for fun and their own women for marriage)
Israel is a democracy, its successful and it’s a beacon for the Middle East in many ways.
It also has a nasty streak that’s not just down to the way that Jews have been treated historically. You can see that in the Iran war - it was entirely foreseeable that Iran would close the straits - but that’s an “us” problem - their problem is the Islamic Republic and they’d be happy to have a failed state that doesn’t threaten them and fuck the rest of the world.
How about you engage with the piece - you've failed to engage with my changing views on the conflict - you've failed to engage with the suffering of the Palestinians - you've utterly failed to engage with why I walked away - your response is ignorant, lacks even a basic effort to understand my position and is based on preconceived view that Israel is always right and everyone who even dares to question the state is bad - frankly mate you may as well get to the tedious punch line that is now pushed by Israel supporters and call me an anti-semite - I wrote the piece about this kind of response and people like you
So, in your view Israel could only defend itself against Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran if it had a plan for when the war ends and that plan must be publicly announced to your stisfaction.
Britain fought the Nazis without a post-war plan though it did join the US Marshall Plan for occupation and reconstruction of Germany after the Allies won. But on your analysis Britian should not have begin the war on its own.
Israel will join or cooperate with the US plan for Gaza. That Hamas may not cooperate is not Israel's fault.
Where are your tears for the seveal hundred thousand killed in Sudan? Or the million or so Uighurs the women of whom are being sterilised?
After years of being attacked those pesky Jews just won't agree to be killed anymore. They agreed to give up land in 2005, force removing Israeli citizens in Gaza, but got only rockets in return and then invasion 7th October 2023.
Actually I didn't say that - however you've decided to misrepresent my piece and have clearly decided you know what I think - I'll let you get on with it
Engage with the reaction, not refer back to your piece. Ask yourself, and then him/her why they had that reaction. Archness is a killer of debate, and without honourable arguments, we're fucked.
"Though [Israel] made good efforts to protect people it did nothing that I could see to plan for the post war period." Well, if could not be seen by you...
"If Israel had wanted to win this war they should have been planning for the peace from day one including bringing in the Arab league but alas they didn’t." Are you privy to the cimmunications between Isreal and Arab states?
It was up to Israel to bring in the Arab League irrespective of what the League's 22 members wanted? (Some are virulently anti-semitic - i.e. racist).
After the straw man of Israel having no plan for Gaza (just as Britian had no plan for Germany when it declared war) the rest of the article is sophistry to turn readers against Israel.
It reflects well on you that you would feel this way, although I think it's misguided.
Unlike you, I'm not a good writer, but I do think it's important to make some points that are sort of but not really contra to what you say:
1. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, ending literally thousands of years of continuous Jewish presence in the region. The reason, because the IDF could not protect the miniscule number of Jews from the Arabs. And this was before Hamas. After Israel left, Hamas spent almost 2 decades and literally billions of dollars on turning the strip into a giant army base. The reason you see such devastation is because almost every house was booby trapped, or had tunnels underneath it to store arms and rockets and allow for unseen movement, or was used by Hamas fighters. Aid money was diverted to weapons. Water pipes dug up and used for rockets. The infrastructure the Jews left behind, which could have created wealth and prosperity - destroyed. In the same time period, Israel built the iron dome and bomb shelters to protect its people. No shelters for the Palestinians.
2. Despite all this, Hamas knew that if they took hostages, the Israelis would be forced to enter Gaza and fight the war that Hamas wanted. They wanted the dead civilians, the dead babies, the crying mothers and the physical damage. They counted on it. Now you could say, well, Israel shouldn't have gone in then, but they had no choice with hundreds of people held by Hamas, who were never going to negotiate them back. Incidentally, this is one of the main reasons for the recent terrorist death penalty law that Israel passed that caused such consternation. If Hamas hadn't taken hostages to swap for terrorists, the law wouldn't have happened. Sinwar himself was released in a hostage swap.
3. Despite all that, the war that Israel fought was astonishingly 'clean' by any standard. At worst the civilian:militant deaths ratio is 1:1, although it's probably much better than that and looking at the age/sex numbers of casualties suggests it's probably more like 1 civilian for every 3 or 4 militants - these are unheard of numbers in any urban conflict, never mind one where one side deliberately puts civilians in harms way.
4. I have no doubt there will have been some individual atrocities and war crimes committed by the IDF, if there weren't, it would be the first war in history that there weren't. That being said, despite there being millions of smartphones in Gaza, we have very little video of anything untoward. We have post incident takes to camera, bodies filmed etc - but never anything concrete and more than once we've seen videos which were subsequently proven to be faked. Check the x account 'Imshin' for some of these.
5. Of course there will be individuals who have suffered who are innocent in Gaza, but what we have witnessed with our own eyes is that on 7th October, thousands were celebrating the atrocities as they were carried out. Not one Gazan gave any information on hostages despite substantial rewards on offer. Many of the hostages were held in 'civilian' homes. These are a brainwashed fanatical people, on the whole, with few exceptions. They are not like us. They hate all Jews and want them all dead. They will never be satisfied, no matter how many wars they lose, until all the Jews are dead.
6. As regards what Israel has been up to since 7th October - they had to go into Gaza to get the hostages. They had to go into Lebanon as Hezbollah were sending constant rockets. They went into Syria, very briefly, in order to prevent advanced weaponry falling into the hands of islamists and to protect the Druze. That done, they left. The Druze are now staunch Israeli allies. As for Iran, that's the head of the snake. Remove the Iranian regime and much of the middle east would fall into peace. But crucially, vitally, Israel hasn't gone into Jordan. Or Egypt. Or Saudi Arabia. Why? Simple, because these countries are not attacking Israel. Don't attack Israel don't get bombed. It really is that simple. All this propaganda bullshit about rogue state and greater Israel is just propaganda bullshit. They are dealing with those who threaten them, as any state should do.
7. Where I disagree with Israeli policy it is in the west bank where they have allowed non-state actors to settle and threaten the locals in an unacceptable way. That being said, it's not like the locals are mere innocents themselves. No Jews are allowed in the Palestinian authority controlled areas. It is literal apartheid. It would be great if they could all just live and let live and Arabs could go and live in Jaffa and Jews could live in Hebron. But wait, Arabs do live in Jaffa, without threat, with a vote, with full citizen rights. It's only the West Bank where there is apartheid.
8. Finally, this current war - it has been prosecuted poorly, and my own opinion is that it was a missed opportunity. If they'd hit the regime in January when protests were at their largest, they might have had a chance, but Trump moving all his assets to deal with Venezuela put the kybosh on that. That being said, if Iran had got nukes, we were all utterly fucked. Just because they overstated the threat of Saddam (I was against that war), doesn't mean it is the same this time. They would still have eventually closed the strait, but this time we wouldn't have cared about petrol, because we'd all be under threat of annihilation. And Britain would be a top target for them. I also think this inability that we have to tolerate any discomfort is a civilisational threat. And the impatience. Fuck me, ww2 was 6 years and we're bored of this after 6 weeks. Imagine rationing these days. We are coddled useless whingers and the Chinese must be loving it.
9. Finally, on the subject of the Chinese, and indeed the Russians, Iran is an absolute key ally for both, it provides oil, drones, tech and plenty more and at knock down prices thanks to sanctions. So dealing with Iran, however it goes, is a blow to both China and Russia, who are the real threats to the West. The strait being closed hurts the Chinese more than us. A neutered Tehran is a big problem for Putin and Xi. I'm sure that Trump or his team are aware of that.
Your position now seems to be much as mine was then - and still is. All these situations are complex, we should never forget that, and there are no easy solutions.
A viewpoint that challenges my thinking. I'm not particularly bright, so I've started thinking in micro/macro terms. If I snapped my fingers and every Palestinian disappeared off the earth, would we lose many good people? Would the world be a better place? Your writing and changed position deserve good faith engagement.
I’m with you 100% on this. I was not at all sympathetic to Gazans in the immediate aftermath of 7/10. I also support Israel’s right to exist.
That doesn’t mean however they get to act without impunity- the Millwall of the Global Community.
There are lots of hostile actors in the Middle East - what are they going to do - flatten anyone who looks at them funny?
Who gets the refugees from the chaos they unleash? Europe.
The fact is that there are good many supremacist Jews in Israel who are happy to tread on and bully non-Jews. Not just on the West Bank. They are reigned in by the government who know how to keep up appearances in the outside world. But frankly there are a lot of nasty currents and a fair bit of schadenfreud towards Christian Europe that borders on bigotry.
And there is usually a chorus of voices that then start accusing you of antisemitism for pointing this out.
(30 odd years ago my brother spent 9 months on a kibbutz and came home with a very negative opinion of Israelis - the non-Jews got markedly different treatment from the Jews, the common Israelis had open contempt for non-Jewish archaeology and ruins etc.
Later running a hostel in Peru he found that the many gap year Israelis who toured South America were rude, unpleasant and predatory towards local girls - in the same way perhaps that say subcontinentals divide the world into women for fun and their own women for marriage)
Israel is a democracy, its successful and it’s a beacon for the Middle East in many ways.
It also has a nasty streak that’s not just down to the way that Jews have been treated historically. You can see that in the Iran war - it was entirely foreseeable that Iran would close the straits - but that’s an “us” problem - their problem is the Islamic Republic and they’d be happy to have a failed state that doesn’t threaten them and fuck the rest of the world.
How about you engage with the piece - you've failed to engage with my changing views on the conflict - you've failed to engage with the suffering of the Palestinians - you've utterly failed to engage with why I walked away - your response is ignorant, lacks even a basic effort to understand my position and is based on preconceived view that Israel is always right and everyone who even dares to question the state is bad - frankly mate you may as well get to the tedious punch line that is now pushed by Israel supporters and call me an anti-semite - I wrote the piece about this kind of response and people like you
So, in your view Israel could only defend itself against Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran if it had a plan for when the war ends and that plan must be publicly announced to your stisfaction.
Britain fought the Nazis without a post-war plan though it did join the US Marshall Plan for occupation and reconstruction of Germany after the Allies won. But on your analysis Britian should not have begin the war on its own.
Israel will join or cooperate with the US plan for Gaza. That Hamas may not cooperate is not Israel's fault.
Where are your tears for the seveal hundred thousand killed in Sudan? Or the million or so Uighurs the women of whom are being sterilised?
After years of being attacked those pesky Jews just won't agree to be killed anymore. They agreed to give up land in 2005, force removing Israeli citizens in Gaza, but got only rockets in return and then invasion 7th October 2023.
Excellent response, Stout.
Actually I didn't say that - however you've decided to misrepresent my piece and have clearly decided you know what I think - I'll let you get on with it
Engage with the reaction, not refer back to your piece. Ask yourself, and then him/her why they had that reaction. Archness is a killer of debate, and without honourable arguments, we're fucked.
"Though [Israel] made good efforts to protect people it did nothing that I could see to plan for the post war period." Well, if could not be seen by you...
"If Israel had wanted to win this war they should have been planning for the peace from day one including bringing in the Arab league but alas they didn’t." Are you privy to the cimmunications between Isreal and Arab states?
It was up to Israel to bring in the Arab League irrespective of what the League's 22 members wanted? (Some are virulently anti-semitic - i.e. racist).
After the straw man of Israel having no plan for Gaza (just as Britian had no plan for Germany when it declared war) the rest of the article is sophistry to turn readers against Israel.
It reflects well on you that you would feel this way, although I think it's misguided.
Unlike you, I'm not a good writer, but I do think it's important to make some points that are sort of but not really contra to what you say:
1. Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005, ending literally thousands of years of continuous Jewish presence in the region. The reason, because the IDF could not protect the miniscule number of Jews from the Arabs. And this was before Hamas. After Israel left, Hamas spent almost 2 decades and literally billions of dollars on turning the strip into a giant army base. The reason you see such devastation is because almost every house was booby trapped, or had tunnels underneath it to store arms and rockets and allow for unseen movement, or was used by Hamas fighters. Aid money was diverted to weapons. Water pipes dug up and used for rockets. The infrastructure the Jews left behind, which could have created wealth and prosperity - destroyed. In the same time period, Israel built the iron dome and bomb shelters to protect its people. No shelters for the Palestinians.
2. Despite all this, Hamas knew that if they took hostages, the Israelis would be forced to enter Gaza and fight the war that Hamas wanted. They wanted the dead civilians, the dead babies, the crying mothers and the physical damage. They counted on it. Now you could say, well, Israel shouldn't have gone in then, but they had no choice with hundreds of people held by Hamas, who were never going to negotiate them back. Incidentally, this is one of the main reasons for the recent terrorist death penalty law that Israel passed that caused such consternation. If Hamas hadn't taken hostages to swap for terrorists, the law wouldn't have happened. Sinwar himself was released in a hostage swap.
3. Despite all that, the war that Israel fought was astonishingly 'clean' by any standard. At worst the civilian:militant deaths ratio is 1:1, although it's probably much better than that and looking at the age/sex numbers of casualties suggests it's probably more like 1 civilian for every 3 or 4 militants - these are unheard of numbers in any urban conflict, never mind one where one side deliberately puts civilians in harms way.
4. I have no doubt there will have been some individual atrocities and war crimes committed by the IDF, if there weren't, it would be the first war in history that there weren't. That being said, despite there being millions of smartphones in Gaza, we have very little video of anything untoward. We have post incident takes to camera, bodies filmed etc - but never anything concrete and more than once we've seen videos which were subsequently proven to be faked. Check the x account 'Imshin' for some of these.
5. Of course there will be individuals who have suffered who are innocent in Gaza, but what we have witnessed with our own eyes is that on 7th October, thousands were celebrating the atrocities as they were carried out. Not one Gazan gave any information on hostages despite substantial rewards on offer. Many of the hostages were held in 'civilian' homes. These are a brainwashed fanatical people, on the whole, with few exceptions. They are not like us. They hate all Jews and want them all dead. They will never be satisfied, no matter how many wars they lose, until all the Jews are dead.
6. As regards what Israel has been up to since 7th October - they had to go into Gaza to get the hostages. They had to go into Lebanon as Hezbollah were sending constant rockets. They went into Syria, very briefly, in order to prevent advanced weaponry falling into the hands of islamists and to protect the Druze. That done, they left. The Druze are now staunch Israeli allies. As for Iran, that's the head of the snake. Remove the Iranian regime and much of the middle east would fall into peace. But crucially, vitally, Israel hasn't gone into Jordan. Or Egypt. Or Saudi Arabia. Why? Simple, because these countries are not attacking Israel. Don't attack Israel don't get bombed. It really is that simple. All this propaganda bullshit about rogue state and greater Israel is just propaganda bullshit. They are dealing with those who threaten them, as any state should do.
7. Where I disagree with Israeli policy it is in the west bank where they have allowed non-state actors to settle and threaten the locals in an unacceptable way. That being said, it's not like the locals are mere innocents themselves. No Jews are allowed in the Palestinian authority controlled areas. It is literal apartheid. It would be great if they could all just live and let live and Arabs could go and live in Jaffa and Jews could live in Hebron. But wait, Arabs do live in Jaffa, without threat, with a vote, with full citizen rights. It's only the West Bank where there is apartheid.
8. Finally, this current war - it has been prosecuted poorly, and my own opinion is that it was a missed opportunity. If they'd hit the regime in January when protests were at their largest, they might have had a chance, but Trump moving all his assets to deal with Venezuela put the kybosh on that. That being said, if Iran had got nukes, we were all utterly fucked. Just because they overstated the threat of Saddam (I was against that war), doesn't mean it is the same this time. They would still have eventually closed the strait, but this time we wouldn't have cared about petrol, because we'd all be under threat of annihilation. And Britain would be a top target for them. I also think this inability that we have to tolerate any discomfort is a civilisational threat. And the impatience. Fuck me, ww2 was 6 years and we're bored of this after 6 weeks. Imagine rationing these days. We are coddled useless whingers and the Chinese must be loving it.
9. Finally, on the subject of the Chinese, and indeed the Russians, Iran is an absolute key ally for both, it provides oil, drones, tech and plenty more and at knock down prices thanks to sanctions. So dealing with Iran, however it goes, is a blow to both China and Russia, who are the real threats to the West. The strait being closed hurts the Chinese more than us. A neutered Tehran is a big problem for Putin and Xi. I'm sure that Trump or his team are aware of that.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
An honest piece Dan. I am proud to say that this was my tweet a few days, after the Hamas atrocities, on October 10th 2023
https://x.com/EyesOnThePriz12/status/1711701230160953422
Your position now seems to be much as mine was then - and still is. All these situations are complex, we should never forget that, and there are no easy solutions.
A viewpoint that challenges my thinking. I'm not particularly bright, so I've started thinking in micro/macro terms. If I snapped my fingers and every Palestinian disappeared off the earth, would we lose many good people? Would the world be a better place? Your writing and changed position deserve good faith engagement.
That's not a bad take. Well written.